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TylerDurden
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2009, 05:12:15 AM » |
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Hm, given all those references re "gurus" and "agendas", there does seem just a touch of unnecessary paranoia, here!(lol)
re archaeologists:- Palaeo evidence is so sparse that it makes more sense to look to those ideas that have more evidence backing them than others(eg:- the aquatic ape theory has rather more criticisms leveled at it re the evidence by numerous researchers than the meat-DHA theory, by comparison). Granted, anything is possible and the aquatic ape theory could even end up being the right one, but the weight of evidence is currently against it. Science, indeed, operates by concensus and experimentation etc.
Re comment "why should homo physiology, the planet's biosphere, animal physiology & metabolism be exactly the same today as 30,000 years ago" .It is possible, I suppose, for animals to suddenly change their metabolism etc., but that generally takes a lot longer than 30,000 years. I'm just a bit sceptical re the pufas somehow changing in that time.
Re grassfed comments:- Ah, it seems I've been getting so many e-mails so that I may have missed the point of the previous discussion. I think I assumed, at the time, that you were suggesting that some grainfed meats from some animals were superior to some grassfed meats from other animals.Sorry, my error.
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"We forfeit three-quarters of ourselves in order to be like other people."
Arthur Schopenhauer
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Josh
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2009, 06:31:41 AM » |
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Now that comment I can easily NOT believe in. After all, in teh Uk and many other countries, pigs are happily fed on grains, and being omnivores, are less susceptible to problems from grains than cattle - and cattle are meant to be fed on grasses, not grains. I suppose one way of looking at it would be that paleo cows would have eaten some grass seeds as part of their diet, so may be able to tolerate grains to some extent, whereas pigs wouldn't have had any at all. By the same reasoning grass fed would still be better though. |
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rafonly
Buffalo Hunter
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2009, 08:00:40 AM » |
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"Re comment "why should homo physiology, the planet's biosphere, animal physiology & metabolism be exactly the same today as 30,000 years ago" .It is possible, I suppose, for animals to suddenly change their metabolism etc., but that generally takes a lot longer than 30,000 years. I'm just a bit sceptical re the pufas somehow changing in that time."
ok
of the 3 factors i mentioned -- {1} homo physiology {2} the planet's biosphere {3} animal physiology & metabolism -- you just addressed 50% of the 3rd by stating your own opinion: you suppose, you're sceptical; that's that folks
> i'm curious as to how scientific this opinion of yours is when not backed by any appropriate reference or how much this opinion of yours reflects your life experiences (?)
so far you haven't referred to the source of your opinions in this thread & you seem to expect every reader to take your words at face value since you make yourself sound like you're meant to be the official expert around here or at least the ultimate mover 'n shaker
{you did, indeed, move this thread w/ no notice}
when it comes to the planet's biosphere, for ex...
~ some1 could find references that shed some light on biosphere changes over the last 30,00 years: what flora & fauna has disappeared, what new hybrids have proliferated, the mineral profile of soils & waters, etc.
~ some1 could reason that within the last 100 years -- i.e. much sooner than 30,00 years -- changes have already been observed in the pufa profile of cattle raised on pasture from start to finish vs cattle kept in feedlots for their last 3-6 months
re. the aquatic ape theory, i've not read about it in this thread at all other than in 2 of your posts
> you seem to be enjoying a dialogue w/ your self on this issue
what your agenda is may be classified info
now,
if you are overwhelmed w/ emails, could you perhaps consider the possibility of slowing down your posting speed thereby enhancing the quality of your posts & lowering your stress level?
just wondering...
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"time & gradient precede existence", me
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TylerDurden
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2009, 11:50:44 AM » |
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Well, actually, any claims re extinction of megafauna tend, more commonly , to be from c.40,000 years ago not 30,000 years ago. And like I said, I am merely describing the general standpoint among palaeoanthropologists, not necessarily my own, that differences in metabolism etc. take much longer to develop than a mere 30,000 years. if you have evidence re water-content etc. changing, by all means provide it. Just don't be at all surprised if people are somewhat sceptical.
As regards the aquatic ape theory, I would suggest that you actually check the various websites both in favour and against it, and you'll then start seeing what I was talking about. This wasn't a thread on aquatic ape theory(I've done them before) so I didn't feel the need to repeat myself.
re moving:- I moved this thread solely because of the zero-carb-related material. It seems to me absurd that we have all these multiple forums yet that people try as much as possible to post their topics in the general discussions forum so as to be supposedly more viewable. Makes better sense to rejuvenate the various, different forums(zero-carb or otherwise).
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« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 11:56:38 AM by TylerDurden »
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"We forfeit three-quarters of ourselves in order to be like other people."
Arthur Schopenhauer
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rafonly
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2009, 11:24:18 PM » |
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unlike genetic evolution, epigenetic does not call for long periods of time
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
"Whereas the DNA sequence of the region is not mutated, this change is reversible. It has also been speculated that organisms may take advantage of differential mutation rates associated with epigenetic features to control the mutation rates of particular genes.
"Epigenetic changes have also been observed to occur in response to environmental exposure -- for example, mice given some dietary supplements have epigenetic changes affecting expression of the agouti gene, which affects their fur color, weight, and propensity to develop cancer."
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"time & gradient precede existence", me
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TylerDurden
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2009, 03:50:51 AM » |
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The point about epigenetics is that the fundamental DNA isn't actually inherently changed just the gene-expression, so there's no major mutational change.
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"We forfeit three-quarters of ourselves in order to be like other people."
Arthur Schopenhauer
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rafonly
Buffalo Hunter
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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2009, 10:21:42 PM » |
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ah-hah!
are you now saying that, just as 40,000 years ago, humans are basically still eating aurochs today?
in that case, it does not really matter whether the raw beef we pop in the mouth comes from pastured or from feed loted cattle
come to think about it, perhaps that's why people in other forums have found no significant difference in o-3:o-6 profile in beef meat regardless of farming/raising procedures (using usda calculations) -- see earlier posts in this thread
food for thought?
dha any1?
1 more point:
what's the proper manner to mention dha or fish on this forum without being blamed for lobbying for the aquatic ape theory?
do you sponsor the aquatic ape theory each time you eat seafood?
just curious
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"time & gradient precede existence", me
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TylerDurden
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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2009, 03:21:33 AM » |
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are you now saying that, just as 40,000 years ago, humans are basically still eating aurochs today?
in that case, it does not really matter whether the raw beef we pop in the mouth comes from pastured or from feed loted cattle The stunning lack of logic in the above statement is just weird! First of all, the aurochs and modern cattle are little different, dna-wise, given that modern cattle are just downsized versions of the ancient aurochs, and what they both ate re diet hasn't exactly changed to any extent in the intervening period(re grasses), so that they are indistinguishable. And of course the issue of grassfed beef/grainfed beef is totally irrelevant to your comment re the aurochs/40,000 years ago , as the nutrient profile of grassfed meat is very much different from that of grainfed meat, whereas there would be virtually no difference between grassfed meat from an aurochs and meat from modern cattle raised on a similiar diet of grasses/herbs. |
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"We forfeit three-quarters of ourselves in order to be like other people."
Arthur Schopenhauer
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rafonly
Buffalo Hunter
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2009, 01:37:17 PM » |
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weird?
i was just extrapolating from what you said: that there have been no fundamental changes in dna but only in gene expression
however:
changes in traits, esp. if reflecting dietary or biosphere modifications have an epigenetic effect & may end up being heritable variations
people have different priorities
among those for whom carnivorism is a natural foodstyle, some of the choices are:
raw vs cooked
fresh vs prefrozen
entire vs ground
grass vs grain
who can tell what the overall impact of those choices is? how would those alternatives be sorted out & quantified on their physiological & behavioral impact over a period of time?
myself, i prefer all the choices i listed on the left: raw, fresh, entire, grass; however, since carnivorism is my natural, firm, nontradable choice, i may on occasion be led by the circumstances to let go of any of my preferred meat features > great! if that strategy keeps me free of the fruit pest it's most welcome
"the nutrient profile of grassfed meat is very much different from that of grainfed meat"
this is a crucial point
the moderators of this forum, meant to be focused on raw paleo, owe it to their readers to explain, precisely, the nutritional differences between pastured & grain fed beef
their comparative study may be based on:
~ their own personal experiences, whatever they may be
~ the experiences w/ both types of beef of as many raw carnivores as available
~ scientific studies in biochemistry, nutrition, epigenetics, evolutionary biology, etc.
~ food databases such as usda, nutritiondata.com, etc.
~ other
we sure want to see that comparative nutritional profile!
if you're advocating pastured beef, you owe it to your readers to substantiate your claim or else let grass fed beef wither as an urban legend
from my experience, 1 thing i can say is that, to me, pastured beef smells & tastes different from its feedloted counterpart -- a subjective impression, which at least to some degree must be the result of my buying pastured beef only in the form of really fresh primal cuts... hard to tell
another thing i can say is that i prefer to give my money to farmers who feed their cattle according to the animals' original (aurochian) digestive system -- this shows an anthropomorphic projection, since it's based on my own feelings about myself & not on any knowledge of the current animal's feelings or preferences
anyhow,
~ it's claimed by various paleo authors that in the last 10,000 years since the dawn of the farming-herding-urbanizing-civilizing revolution humans have not genetically adapted to cereals, legumes, nonhuman milk especially past weaning age (& for that reason modern humans are advised not to include these items in their diet)
~ there are both anecdotal individual reports & scientific research findings to partially support this paleo dietary claim -- albeit focused mostly on traits, not on genes & only in some human populations -- even though the said paleo claim remains at odds w/ current cultural standards
are there, likewise, any research findings that show that auroch/cattle have or have not, gene- or trait-wise, adapted to the same dietary items in perhaps the same timeframe?
further,
are there any long-term scientific or personal studies of the effects of grass vs grain beef on human physiology or behavior? or any historical comparison of the effects of carnivorism before & after the grain feeding technique & feedloting were adopted? does stefansson say anything about cattle raising practices in the contiguous us states?
+ another gem from the expert:
"there would be virtually no difference between grassfed meat from an aurochs and meat from modern cattle raised on a similiar diet of grasses/herbs"
how do you know (if you do)?
how was the "similar diet" measured & ascertained (if it ever was) in paleo aurochs & modern cattle?
which leads to:
what's the difference between cattle standing in a feed lot & aurochs stranded between glaciations?
what was there for aurochs & horses to eat between glaciations?
it is as if the cro-magnon had taken the secret of their sophisticated, complex brain with themselves
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"time & gradient precede existence", me
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rafonly
Buffalo Hunter
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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2009, 12:20:26 PM » |
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Re comment "why should homo physiology, the planet's biosphere, animal physiology & metabolism be exactly the same today as 30,000 years ago" .It is possible, I suppose, for animals to suddenly change their metabolism etc., but that generally takes a lot longer than 30,000 years. I'm just a bit sceptical re the pufas somehow changing in that time.
so earlier you were skeptical about the possibility of the pufa profile changing in 30,000 years or less but recently you ended up claiming that it was "weird" logic to hypothetically presume that there is no significant difference between modern grass & modern grain fed beef re. their pufa profile however: a) you had already stated that the said pufa profile won't change in 30,000 years b) you agreed that modern cattle is not genetically different from paleo auroch (ignoring epigenetics) what gives? hopefully your comparative (grass vs grain) nutritional profile will be available soon [/color] |
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"time & gradient precede existence", me
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