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Author Topic: ZC to ZC Raw questions  (Read 2994 times)
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miles
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2010, 09:34:14 PM »

Is 'Beef Dripping' a good source of extra fat?
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lex_rooker
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2010, 11:36:45 PM »

Is 'Beef Dripping' a good source of extra fat?

If what you are referring to is the fat that is left after roasting fatty cuts of beef, then what you actually have is rendered fat.  It would be just as good (or bad, depending on how you look at cooking) as any other rendered fat.  I use rendered fat quite often as it is a convenient way to store fat.  Some people believe that rendered fat is hazardous to your health because it has been cooked.  I've had no problem with it and believe it is far better than the junk most people eat.  To me, the convenience of using rendered fat far out weighs any perceived drawbacks - but that is only my opinion.

Lex
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 12:43:39 AM »

If what you are referring to is the fat that is left after roasting fatty cuts of beef, then what you actually have is rendered fat.  It would be just as good (or bad, depending on how you look at cooking) as any other rendered fat. 
Lex

I cannot agree. I assume that you are too polite to call it tallow, whatever, it tastes far better than any tallow I've ever made, and it does not keep.
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 07:19:40 AM »

Lex, I have experienced a negative effect from heating tallow. When I heated it to 190 F instead of my usual 130 F, I developed lots of burping. I didn't recognize the cause of it until I made a new batch of tallow at my usual 130 F and didn't get the burping after eating. I had also left the tallow heating in the crock pot longer than I had before at the 190 F temp, so I don't know if it was just the higher temp that did it or the time too. It tasted slightly burnt and I hadn't gotten this effect from eating higher-heated tallow before, so maybe this only happens when it's burnt. Some day maybe I'll test 190 F again with a shorter heating time.

Danny Roddy thinks the stomach upset he got from tallow may have been related to this also, as he noticed a burnt odor to his tallow when I mentioned his.
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> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
lex_rooker
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 11:23:21 AM »

Lex, I have experienced a negative effect from heating tallow. When I heated it to 190 F instead of my usual 130 F, I developed lots of burping. I didn't recognize the cause of it until I made a new batch of tallow at my usual 130 F and didn't get the burping after eating. I had also left the tallow heating in the crock pot longer than I had before at the 190 F temp, so I don't know if it was just the higher temp that did it or the time too. It tasted slightly burnt and I hadn't gotten this effect from eating higher-heated tallow before, so maybe this only happens when it's burnt. Some day maybe I'll test 190 F again with a shorter heating time.

Danny Roddy thinks the stomach upset he got from tallow may have been related to this also, as he noticed a burnt odor to his tallow when I mentioned his.

Tallow that is truly rendered at 130 deg could be deficient in some of the fatty acids as some may not melt and render out of the tissues at that temperature.  It would also contain a good deal of moisture which would affect the keeping qualities - which may or may not concern you depending on how soon you consume it.  I've never had a problem with rendered fat, even when rendered at up to 240F.  In any case, I always render above 212F to drive out the moisture.

Danny has eaten my pemmican many times and never complained of any problems.  Maybe he was just too kind to mention them.

Lex
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PaleoPhil
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2010, 11:48:37 AM »

Tallow that is truly rendered at 130 deg could be deficient in some of the fatty acids as some may not melt and render out of the tissues at that temperature.
Interesting, but wouldn't that be the case for totally raw suet as well?

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It would also contain a good deal of moisture which would affect the keeping qualities - which may or may not concern you depending on how soon you consume it.
Correct, I make small batches that I consume quickly. It's also interesting that the Inuit and Chukchi eat fermented fat. So while spoiled fat may taste lousy to me currently, I'm not sure that it's necessarily unhealthy.

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I've never had a problem with rendered fat, even when rendered at up to 240F.  In any case, I always render above 212F to drive out the moisture.
Yeah, I didn't have past problems with higher-heated fat either, so I suspect something went wrong. I don't know for sure whether I became less tolerant of higher-heated tallow or if it was a one-time fluke due to something going wrong. I should experiment with it again. Maybe the extra moisture that was on it made it more prone to burning or maybe I let the crock pot run too long. How long do you typically render for?

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Danny has eaten my pemmican many times and never complained of any problems.  Maybe he was just too kind to mention them. ...
It was in one of his more recent blog posts that I replied with a comment to. I can look up the link if you're interested. His problem was with some tallow or pemmican he made, not any you sent him, as I recall. So your cooking skills are not in question. Wink
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> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 04:41:52 PM »

Interesting, but wouldn't that be the case for totally raw suet as well?
By render I'm sure Lex is assuming you're straining the fat while hot. In this case you're throwing away the solids which will still contain some of these fatty acids. If consuming either raw or fully rendered tallow you'd get these. You're possibly "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" I guess. Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2010, 11:09:56 AM »

Interesting, but wouldn't that be the case for totally raw suet as well?

Dan’s post was in line with what I was thinking.  Tallow / Rendering makes one think you are discarding the solid chunks and reserving the liquid fat.  If this is the case, and you haven’t heated the fat at a high enough temperature, then some of the more saturated fatty acids may not fully liquefy and you’ll be discarding them with the remaining tissues.  Of course if you are consuming the solid bits of tissue that you would normally discard as well as the liquid fat then you are getting everything there is to get, just as you would if consuming whole raw fat.

Correct, I make small batches that I consume quickly. It's also interesting that the Inuit and Chukchi eat fermented fat. So while spoiled fat may taste lousy to me currently, I'm not sure that it's necessarily unhealthy.

I actually like fermented meat – though not overly fermented.  I often leave my food in my warm car from early morning to mid afternoon on summer days and it does get a bit ‘bubbly” and sour tasting.  I suppose it is an acquired taste.  However, I’m not overly fond of slimy High Meat.  I guess I’m rather pedestrian in that I prefer beer over rock gut whisky so to speak.

Yeah, I didn't have past problems with higher-heated fat either, so I suspect something went wrong. I don't know for sure whether I became less tolerant of higher-heated tallow or if it was a one-time fluke due to something going wrong. I should experiment with it again. Maybe the extra moisture that was on it made it more prone to burning or maybe I let the crock pot run too long.

I never make a decision on one or two meals.  Way too many things going on to be able to determine if there is a true problem with such a small sample – unless of course I get violently ill and puke my guts out.  Stress at work or in a relationship can cause indigestion as can a passing bacterial or viral infection.  These things are usually very short lived and you’re back to normal (whatever that is) within a couple of days.

How long do you typically render for?

Depends on the temperature I’m rendering at.  If I’m in the mood to keep it low – around 220F, then I have to render for 8 to 10 hours, or maybe longer if it’s a big batch, to remove most of the water.  If rendering at 240F then usually 3 hours is enough.  I go by the look of the floating solids.  If they are barely “fizzing” then most of the water is gone.  You can see this in my Pemmican manual.  Also be aware that things will be barely fizzing at the lower temperature just because the heat is low and moisture is released more slowly so you have to just get the feel of it as you do it.  For pemmican or tallow that I’m going to store long term I will strain out the solids and then return to the heat at about 230F for another hour or so just to make sure all the water is gone.

It was in one of his more recent blog posts that I replied with a comment to. I can look up the link if you're interested. His problem was with some tallow or pemmican he made, not any you sent him, as I recall. So your cooking skills are not in question. Wink

Never thought my cooking skills were at issue.  Just pointing out that I render at 240F and Danny has eaten my pemmican and never said anything about it causing indigestion.  So it was a reference to high temp rendering and not the over all process.

Lex
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William
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2010, 01:51:26 PM »

Tallow / Rendering makes one think you are discarding the solid chunks and reserving the liquid fat.  If this is the case, and you haven’t heated the fat at a high enough temperature, then some of the more saturated fatty acids may not fully liquefy and you’ll be discarding them with the remaining tissues.  Of course if you are consuming the solid bits of tissue that you would normally discard as well as the liquid fat then you are getting everything there is to get, just as you would if consuming whole raw fat.

If the solids are heated at no more than ~130F, they might be OK for those not too sensitive to cooked meat, but at my or Lex's usual rendering temp of >170°F the solids have the same effect on health as overcooked proteins.

Whether the usual rendering method would result in any deficiency would take a long-term study, (years) as the records don't show such a result.
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2010, 05:34:12 PM »

Raw fat is about 35%  to 40% water and non-fatty tissue...

Its strange that the USDA nutrient data base for suet has it listed at 4% water, 1.5%, and 94% fat and a total of 8.5 calories per gram.
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