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Author Topic: Digestion Times For RAF  (Read 670 times)
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lex_rooker
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2008, 07:53:44 AM »

One thing I can tell you is that a meal of meat and fat will cause a slow rise in BG over about a 3 hour period after which it starts a slow decline.  I'm sure that the 3 hours is a combination of digestion of the meal as well as the time it takes for a portion of the resulting amino acids to be converted by the liver into BG, but I expect that it is fairly representative of the overall time to metabolize a meat/fat meal.

Carbs on the other hand, can cause a massive rise in BG within 15 minutes, especially if the carbs are free simple sugars rather than complex carbs that must be released from indigestible fiber.  There are even some carbs that require intestinal flora to break down the fiber to release the digestible portion within and this can take many hours (not to mention causing great discomfort in the form of gas etc.). Beans and legumes anyone?

Based on the rise and fall of BG, the digestion time for a meal consisting of meat and fat alone is quite consistent, but a meal of mixed carbohydrate sources appears to be quite variable depending on the source. 

Lex
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 12:56:38 AM »

what is bg?, blood and glucose?
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Sully
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 05:26:13 AM »

what is bg?, blood and glucose?

It's "blood glucose."

As for nut digestion time vs. meat, nuts definitely take longer. Imo nuts take longer to digest than even cooked food. They are the most concentrated and hard to digest food in the world, the nutrition for a tree to grow is in there and at the same time it's locked down by shell coverings and enzyme inhibitors.
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JustAnotherExplorer
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2008, 05:29:48 PM »

The only study that I'm aware of that comes anywhere close to addressing this question is one where they fed four pythons identical amounts of beef, one raw, one cooked, one raw and ground, one cooked and ground.  They came to the conclusion that it took less time and energy to consume the meat when it was cooked or ground than when it was raw with even greater reductions when the meat was ground and cooked.
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17827047

How applicable this information is to humans is anybody's guess, as is the question of which snake received the most nutritive benefit.
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TylerDurden
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2008, 09:50:25 PM »

The only study that I'm aware of that comes anywhere close to addressing this question is one where they fed four pythons identical amounts of beef, one raw, one cooked, one raw and ground, one cooked and ground.  They came to the conclusion that it took less time and energy to consume the meat when it was cooked or ground than when it was raw with even greater reductions when the meat was ground and cooked.
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17827047

How applicable this information is to humans is anybody's guess, as is the question of which snake received the most nutritive benefit.
The above study was made by Wrangham, as I recall, who is a notoriously biased,anti-raw chimp behaviourist, and the study has not been corroborated by any other studies.Wrangham's claims re cooked-food leading to bigger brains and his laughable claim that no human can survive for long on a  raw food diet, even one including mostly raw meats,shows that he's never once met any Raw Animal Foodist at all. Plus his claim re humans needing to chew raw meats  for 5 to 6 hours a day in order to get adequate nutrition is not only absurdly extreme but based on a ridiculous comparison to chimpanzees(who are an entirely different species and who are not as adapted to meat-eating as humans are):-

http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/advent-of-cooking-article/

Here's 2 scientific studies which prove Wrangham dead-wrong and show that raw meat is actually easier to digest:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1897402

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3748129

Anyway, Wrangham's pro-cooking views are held in ridicule by most palaeoanthroplogists as he continually makes the same mistake of many amteur scientists:- he makes up a really nice-sounding theory and then looks around for anything whatsoever, no matter how dodgy, to back it up. Real science works by starting with the facts/details of experiments  and only then forming a theory from it, rather than the other way round. Well, it's just as well we have someonas dodgy as Wrangham as the main anti-raw proponent, I suppose.


http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/advent-of-cooking-article/
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 12:10:55 AM by Craig » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008, 06:01:44 AM »

Wrangham was one of the authors of the study, but another collaborator was Stephen Secor whose main focus of research has been the digestive system of pythons http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Secor,SM.  Because of this I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the descriptions of times and energy levels of python digestion.  The extrapolation to humans at the beginning of the abstract is a lot dodgier, but all of us who've made it this far into the world of interpreting and digesting (pun intended) research should be familiar with how fast and loose many authors are with inserting opinions and conclusions into abstracts that have absolutely nothing to do with the data presented in the paper (e.g. many studies that purport to vilify cholesterol and Saturated fat).  I see no reason why snakes can't digest cooked meat more easily than raw while it being the reverse for humans.

I have not read the full studies that you linked to, just the abstracts, but the first one seems to indicate that many plant foods are more easily digestible when cooked (hmm, should we be eating raw meat and cooked plants?) and the only reference to protein digestibility refers to "excessive heat."  Without referring to the body of the study I can't know exactly what temperature "excessive heat" refers to or if the damage caused increases linearly or exponentially as temperatures are raised.  I don't want to make any assumptions, but based just on this info it is equally as likely that low temperature cooking is beneficial or neutral as it is harmful.

From the second study, I'm really not sure what Volatile Ammonium Bases are or what affect they have on digestion, if any.  From a Google search it also appears that these substances have only been measured in fish, not land animals, so the study doesn't necessarily have any bearing whatsoever on the cooking of terrestrial meat.  Without knowing what effect VAB's actually have on the human body or digestion of fish I can't say that this study gives us any information on the human digestion of cooked seafood either.  Also, the study found similar changes in the fish not only from cooking but from freezing and storing.  The freezing and storing is exactly what the Inuit would do, so saying that a change caused by cooking is bad when the same change caused by freezing and storing is neutral or good seems untenable to me.
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 06:52:22 AM »

Freezing or storing food doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as heat. You have to freeze/store for absolutely ages before the damage becomes similiar(see beyondveg.com 's ridiculous anti-raw "thesis" where 30 days' storage is cited etc.). As regards the study re pythons, anyone can make up statistics for a particular study, making the facts fit the theories one wants.

As regards the Oste study, it makes it clear that heating above 100 degrees Centigrade decreases meat-digestibility. As regards heating above 40 degrees Celsius, when enzymes, and eventually, bacteria, start getting destroyed, it would be pretty difficult to argue that there wasn't a linear rate of harm done to food via heating. I mean, surely well-charred meat)with a proven higher amount of toxins in them, such as PAHs, would be far less digestible by comparison to lightly-cooked- or raw-foods?

And, of course, Wrangham totally ignores the whole issue of toxins in cooked-foods, which is a most inconvenient subject for him.

Obviously, more scientific data is needed, but it's becoming more and more difficult to defend cooked-diets when pet-owners find that their pets digest raw meats(on a prey-model diet) far better than the cooked-scraps or processed nutritional supplements they got before. And, brilliantly, all those vets who warned against the supposed "dangers of raw diets" are now looking very stupid, indeed, in the wake of all those recent Chinese pet-food-contamination-scares.

As regards the issue of vegetables being supposedly  "improved" by cooking re removing antinutrients, this is a moot point. Many nutritionists claim that small amounts of such raw vegetables contain "phytonutrients"  which, in small amounts, are beneficial, whereas they would be harmful in much larger amounts(and called "antinutrients", then). Plus, of course, cooking creates toxins in vegetables such as AGEs(advanced glycation endproducts), thus making cooked-veg worse than raw veg, overall.

In any case, the whole python-issue is killed off by the famous , more definitive Pottenger study which(along with numerous anecdotal reports from raw-feeding pet-owners) showed that cats fed on cooked diets suffer from numerous health-problems, which worsen over the generations. The only argument that anti-rawists can convincingly come up with against this study is that "adding artificial taurine supplements" to cooked-pet-food made everything (supposedly) OK - what they can't argue is that heat destroys taurine, which is essential for cats -  so only artificially-supplemented cooked-diets can even compete(albeit with serious damage for cats in the long-term, via AGEs, HCAs etc.).
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 06:58:51 AM by TylerDurden » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 07:42:58 AM »

I agree that cats are a closer surrogate to humans than snakes are, but, AFAIK, the Pottenger studies tell us nothing about the amount of time that it takes for food to be digested and so both studies provide us with useful information.

Wrangham's name is on the python paper but I have no clue how much work he actually did on the project.  It is very common in academia for supervisors who have done no or little work to have their names put on papers above their subordinates.  I do not know if that is what happened in this case or not.  How is it that you are aware that he was "intimately involved?"  If you're basing that on anything other than the position of his name in the citation I'd love to see it.

As per what I know of the Oste study (mainly what is reported by Beyondveg), it is perfectly plausible, absent evidence to the contrary, that enzymes and some nutrients are destroyed at 40 degrees Celsius but that no significant changes to the digestability of the protein take place until temperatures of close to 100 Celsius are reached.  Just because charred, well done meat is significantly less digestible than raw does not require that meat cooked rare be at all less digestible than raw (yes, some nutrients are destroyed, but that is entirely a separate question.)

As per the creation of AGE's and other toxins, in all things it is the dose that creates the poison.  While these substances are arguably detrimental in large quantities and probably never beneficial it is still an assumption to believe that in small quantities the body is incapable of dealing with them without lasting harm.  Dr. Eades has pointed out that no evidence exists that the consumption of AGE's in ones diet causes any increase of AGE's to be stored or formed in the body.  I don't know if he's right, but I haven't seen any evidence to contradict him.  This point on AGE's seems applicable to both vegetables and meat.  Your other point on phytonutrients versus antinutrients seems to me to be a question solely of quantity consumed without regards for preparation method.
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xylothrill
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2008, 08:32:16 AM »

In his book, Experiments and observations on the gastric juice, and the physiology of digestion
 Dr. William Beaumont experiments on the victim of a gunshot wound who has been left with on open stomach. I haven't re-read this but I do believe that, according to this, cooked meat does seem to digest faster than raw meat but neither digest as fast as plant matter, at least so far as the stomach is concerned. He also found that digestion outside the body was slower, if I remember correctly. This is only one person though.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 08:40:19 AM by Craig » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2008, 08:42:43 AM »

In his book, Experiments and observations on the gastric juice, and the physiology of digestion
 Dr. William Beaumont experiments on the victim of a gunshot wound who has been left with on open stomach. I haven't re-read this but I do believe that, according to this, cooked meat does seem to digest faster than raw meat but neither digest as fast as plant matter, at least so far as the stomach is concerned. He also found that digestion outside the body was slower, if I remember correctly. This is only one person though.

Google will only let me look at so much of the book, and I've reached my limit Embarrassed but it seems that you are correct.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 09:06:30 AM by JustAnotherExplorer » Logged
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