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Author Topic: Rapid Evolution Counterargument Against RPD?  (Read 1297 times)
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William
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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2010, 02:49:30 PM »

A theory is a fictional, hypothetical model

Real sciences like chemistry & physics, are verifiable by experiment in the laboratory



A fictional, hypothetical model is called a hypothesis, not a theory.

Smarten up, guys. You are spinning your wheels.
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roony
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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2010, 02:54:39 PM »

A fictional, hypothetical model is called a hypothesis, not a theory.

Smarten up, guys. You are spinning your wheels.

I think you went & confused miles, even more lol, poor thing ... lol
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miles
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2010, 06:01:20 PM »

wtf... It's you who is confused, Roony...
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PaleoPhil
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2010, 09:35:44 PM »

I'm rather amused when I read some posts with outrageous nonsense claims about science ...
Ah, well, if entheogenic mushrooms can inspire creativity with random hallucinations, I suppose I should look at absurdities as potential creativity boosters. I'll try to think of Roony as our hookah-mushroom-smoking caterpillar dude. 

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I like your posts, Phil, or Jessica's as well as William's and others when they sincerely question what "science" tells us but avoid the sterile but highly attractive pittfall or tendency to reject science as a whole .
Thanks! I enjoy your posts very much also.

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As far as I know science remains yet the only method of investigation that clearly works in our attempt to better understand nature and the world we live in.
Or at least the best one we currently have. I try as an amateur to use a basic version of the scientist's toolkit. I like it because to a certain extent it works, not because it's perfect (which it isn't).

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Biology is certainly the less mature science because it deals with the most complex systems,
Correct, the more complex and chaotic and less discrete the system, the more difficult it is to do good science and the easier it is too fall prey to the temptations of seeking the answers you want, making the results fit your hypothesis, cherry picking the data, seeing what you want to see, fooling people with false results, etc.

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we know of. Most biologists now know that the central molecular biology dogma or genetic reductionism is wrong but this does not mean that we haven't meanwhile learned a tremendous amount of things in this framework and that a non reductionist or emergentist and more appropriate theory is not available.
Yes, mapping the genome of several species doesn't seem to have produced the sort of rapid and numerous breakthroughs that some people expected, but I wasn't surprised. Having all the details helps some, but it still doesn't give you the totality of the complex big picture.

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To take just an example of what positive effect modern science such as quantum mechanics or statistical thermodynamics has brought about with respect to raw paleo let's consider the raw versus cooked issue. The adverse effects of cooking can only be understood theoretically in terms of molecules and their behaviour upon heating and this is precisely the subject of quantum mechanics and statistical mechanics, i.e. achievements of the 20th century. No way to find out why cooking might well generate toxins with 19th century science.
Yes, cooking introduces new chaotic variables into organic systems. These organic systems (like food and the human body) are too complex for us to understand fully and we cannot know aforehand all the effects that introducing additional chaos into these systems will have--which is very risky. We are literally playing with fire.

I'm thinking that the work of Nassim Taleb (he's working on another book that will be more universal than his statistics-oriented Black Swan--I highly recommend The Black Swan and all of Dr. Taleb's articles and interviews--he's one of the revolutionaries in the world who really gets it), Mandelbrot and others on complex systems, chaos, unintended consequences, etc. may influence the scientists who already believe that cooking has some deleterious effects to question it even more.

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As to the paleo concept support let me emphasize once more as in my previous post in this thread that we do not even need a specific theory of evolution or even evolution or the gene concept or whatever, we just need to acknowledge that animals or humans cannot a priori adapt to everything, in particular to any arbitrary diet, irrespective of how long they try to do so. A very reasonable and likely assumption, actually.   
Brilliant. Dr. Taleb would like this, I believe. Taleb would say, I think, that all we really need is our own trial-and-error experience to figure out that modern foods have a negative effect on us. I would add that the Paleolithic nutrition/metabolism model saves us some time by giving us some clues as to what we should try. Nassim grudgingly acknowledged that theories do have some value, so I don't think he would mind. Smiley
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> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2010, 10:28:07 PM »

There's plenty of arguments against evolution

The primary one being it's a THEORY, even so called evolutionists admit that


Evolution is not a theory. It's considered 'scientific fact'. You are most likely confused because there are theories which try to explain how evolution took place. Darwin's 'theory of evolution' isn't a theory that evolution took place, rather how it took place i.e. he suggests through natural selection.
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jessica
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2010, 10:45:09 PM »

"As far as I know science remains yet the only method of investigation that clearly works in our attempt to better understand nature and the world we live in."


i agree with this insofar as yes science is us trying to build a language to describe the patterns we see in the natural world...however, we have abused our knowledge and ability to recognize, derive, duplicate and manipulate natural processes to create this horrible society we live in. starting with the abuse of the science of agriculture, we continue to create systems that deny natures existence outside of serving our own purposes!  this is not understanding or knowledge.    this is an extremely understated and annotated version of the real truth and depth of this situation,
  what scientists do not realize is that they will never truly understand any part of the natural world by analyzing, deriving, duplicating etc... perhaps we have overstepped our ability to ever exist with nature as was intended and that is why our species is committing this painful weird suicide or morphing into a new species....and in natures larger plan the earth has to change to create a new pattern of sentience for that new being to exist in....because true knowledge is existing instinctualy within the system as part of the function...because animals dont question, they know, because plants do not question, they know...its divine instinctual knowledge that we strive for but even to ask is to negate the point...
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PaleoPhil
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2010, 11:01:47 PM »

...we have abused our knowledge and ability to recognize, derive, duplicate and manipulate natural processes to create this horrible society we live in. starting with the abuse of the science of agriculture, we continue to create a systems that deny natures existence outside of serving our own purposes!  this is not understanding or knowledge.  ...
Yup, people are even hoping to become fancy robots with cyberbrains. There was another article about that yesterday, and they talked about it like it was a good thing.  Shocked It's getting out of hand. It reminds me of the 1950s world's fair video where the mad scientists were predicting that humans would some day just take a pill instead of eating natural foods.

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... perhaps we have overstepped our ability to ever exist with nature as was intended and that is why our species is committing this painful weird suicide....
You may be right. I think it's the Red Dwarf British TV series (and books based on it) in which the Earth turns out to be a garbage planet that other planets use to store their refuse. A fitting end. Cheesy

The attitude seems to be, "That's all right, there's plenty of other planets where this one came from."
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> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2010, 02:56:53 AM »

I accept there is evolution and natural selection. How humans developed is open for speculation. One author says humans ate raw fruit and damaged their/our brains when we started eating meat and cooking food. Others say eating meat is what led to the increase in the size of the human brain. There are many theories floating around.

Human bottlenecks explain human development? http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/bottleneck.html
Some say as few as 1000 humans remained ~ 60000 years ago, other scientists say as many as 75,000 physically modern humans were in Africa. How could so few people have propelled the "Great Leap Forward", where humans transitioned culturally from apes to modern man, in such a short time?

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roony
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« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2010, 03:39:46 AM »

I accept there is evolution and natural selection. How humans developed is open for speculation. One author says humans ate raw fruit and damaged their/our brains when we started eating meat and cooking food. Others say eating meat is what led to the increase in the size of the human brain. There are many theories floating around.

Human bottlenecks explain human development? http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/bottleneck.html
Some say as few as 1000 humans remained ~ 60000 years ago, other scientists say as many as 75,000 physically modern humans were in Africa. How could so few people have propelled the "Great Leap Forward", where humans transitioned culturally from apes to modern man, in such a short time?



Bottlenecks, theoretical cro-magnons,  dark matter, all old tactics used by the science industry, to cover up their own ignorance, if you cant deny something which goes against your dogma & stupidity, give it a fancy name & call anyone who questions it a fringe or maverick scientist ....


As for calling evolution theory, a fact, that's like calling string theory a fact, you cant make a speculative theory, fact, unless it's provable in a lab

Good luck trying to prove the evolution of man in a lab ... lol
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alphagruis
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2010, 10:37:32 AM »

Evolution is not a theory. It's considered 'scientific fact'. You are most likely confused because there are theories which try to explain how evolution took place. Darwin's 'theory of evolution' isn't a theory that evolution took place, rather how it took place i.e. he suggests through natural selection.


Yes of course. Evolution is first of all just a fact, whether one likes it or not. Period.

Darwin's natural selection and more recently complex systems theory is a theory that may explain or explains yet a good deal of the characteristic features of evolution, whether one likes it or not. Period.



  
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Nature is wont to hide herself. Heraclitus

Nature is a collective idea, and though its essence exist in each individual of the species, can never its perfection inhabit a single object. Henri Fuseli
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