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Author Topic: food poisoning AGAIN  (Read 1802 times)
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Dissident
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 07:42:44 AM »

maybe try wild rice instead?
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 09:14:36 AM »

Forgive my ignorance, Lex...I don't read or post much on ZC forums, so I'm just going to ask you...do other ZCers besides you have kidney stones? I honestly have no idea.

I've followed the zc boards quite a bit and can't recall anyone else having stones.


I just searched pubmed and there seem to be some studies confirming kidney stones in children while on ketogenic diets. Here are some relevant studies

Empiric use of potassium citrate reduces kidney-stone incidence with the ketogenic diet.

"Kidney stones are an adverse event with the ketogenic diet (KD), occurring in approximately 6% of children who are started on this therapy for intractable epilepsy"...

"CONCLUSIONS: Oral potassium citrate is an effective preventive supplement against kidney stones in children who receive the KD, achieving its goal of urine alkalinization. Universal supplementation is warranted"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19596731?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12366731?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=5

All the studies I found in my 3 minutes of searching focus on specifically children on ketogenic diets with epilepsy.

Obviously, their ketogenic diets would be night and day to what a raw paleo would prescribe but at least the studies are ther.
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lex_rooker
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 07:43:51 PM »

What would you suggest i do in order to prevent this happening again? More carbs? I am considering adding carbs in the form of white cooked rice, mainly because i don't want a whole load of fructose from fruit and veg, and also because fiber doesn't agree with me..

First I would suggest that next time you have one of these attacks you go to an emergency room and have a CT scan or an X-ray to confirm that kidney stones are truly the problem.  If they won't do that, at least ask them to do a dip test on your urine to see if blood is present.  If it is, even if there isn't enough for you to see it, it points to a moving stone causing internal bleeding as it scrapes its way along the ureters.  This at least will support the kidney stone diagnosis and rule out colon blockage, diverticulitis, pancreatitis, gall bladder, and other issues not related to the urinary tract.   

I actually purchased the urine test sticks to use at home.  They are 'Multistix 10 SG' made by Bayer.  They are expensive, but they will test for ketones, blood, protein, specific gravity, pH, and several other things. They will also test for Leukocytes so you can tell if you have a urinary tract infection as well.  Just do a Google search on Multistix 10 SG and you should be able to find a source for them. 

I wish I could tell you what to do as I'm suffering from the same problem.  If you find out anything conclusive please let us know as many will benefit.  My father suffered from Kidney Stones as does my son-in-law and a couple of friends.  In all cases the only common denominator seems to be reduced fluid intake.  So far I've upped my fluid intake from 1-2 litres per day to 3-4 litres per day.  Only time will tell if this solves the problem.

Lex
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 06:35:13 AM »

thanks for the reply lex. Actually, the last time this happened,i saw a doctor, and he took a urine sample. Apparently it was cloudy and there was a little blood in it, so he diagnosed a UTI, and prescribed me antibiotics (however i didnt believe i had a UTI as i didnt have any of the other symptoms eg pain when urinating etc, so i never took the antibiotics, and just recovered naturally). He sent the urine off to get properly tested, but i never found out the results...
I'm going to make an appointment for this week, and hopefully get the results of that test, will post here when i find out.
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lex_rooker
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 04:53:31 PM »

Blood in the urine supports kidney stones but you would need a CT scan or X-ray to confirm.  Leukocytes are usually the harbinger of a UTI but blood can be present as well.  Leukocytes can also be present with kidney stones but in this case the infection is caused by the bleeding that the stone is causing rather than the infection causing the bleeding. 

Leukocytes high, possible blood present but not always, a feeling of urgency and some stinging type pain with urination, usually w/fever and chills - probably UTI

Blood present, possible leukocytes but not always, intense pain on lower left or right side of abdomen often radiating to back and lasting hours or days, vomiting or dry heaves, little or no fever - probably kidney stone

I've had both so know the symptoms pretty well.  My guess from your description is that you are experiencing kidney stones.  If my doctor prescribed antibiotics I'd ask if there is positive indication that infection exists (example Leukocytes present in urine).  IF so then take the meds as you could loose a kidney to infection if it gets out of hand.  If he just says its a preventative measure, then I'd be more comfortable not taking them until the tests are more conclusive.  Up to you.

Lex
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2010, 06:19:40 PM »

The first thing I thought when I read the symptoms was kidney stones with UTIs or perhaps just UTIs. Those symptoms are similar to what I experienced years ago when I had both from what in retrospect seemed to be mainly gluten and carb intolerance plus the effects of phytic acid.

I've been able to increase my water intake some as I eat more fat (this adds a touch of ketone sweetness to the water) and as I think I get more used to consuming water (not sure what's at work behind that, though). Have you experienced either of these things, Lex?

As I've mentioned before, magnesium kept coming up as another effective preventative, in addition to water (especially magnesium-rich mineral water), in my own research on kidney stones. Some Inuit who basically ate facultatively carnivorous diets were found to have unusually high levels of magnesium in their body fluids, in addition to their habit of drinking loads of water.
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> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 07:20:05 PM »

I've been able to increase my water intake some as I eat more fat (this adds a touch of ketone sweetness to the water) and as I think I get more used to consuming water (not sure what's at work behind that, though).

    Do you mean water tastes sweeter when your ketones are up?  Humans tend to like the taste of sweet.  If RZC makes water taste sweet, I think that may mean that more water SHOULD be drank when we're on such a diet. (or at least while the water tastes sweet).  I could be wrong.  I still have not tried 0carb.  I'm sure you learn a lot more by doing it.
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 07:35:10 PM »

    Do you mean water tastes sweeter when your ketones are up? 

Yes, that has been my experience as well.
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PaleoPhil
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2010, 08:01:18 PM »

Yes, the sweetness of water on a high animal-fat diet due to some ketone spillage into the saliva, and presumably knowledge passed down the generations to avoid illness, are so far the explanations I can think of for the high consumption of water by Inuit. There may be other reasons as well. It's total speculation on my part, but I'm guessing that eating enough fat to produce a small amount of ketones so that water is slightly sweet may be an optimal level for someone on a VLC, ZC or carnivore diet, so as to encourage the right amount of water consumption. This could be a temporary effect, though, as over time it takes increasing amounts of fat to produce a very slightly sweet taste in my saliva and water, whereas early on less fat produced a very strong sweet taste.
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> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 09:47:56 PM »

When I was a teenager I suffered from kidney stones a lot. The biggest one I had was 18mm and I had to have it removed via surgery. not fun. Since I went 100% paleo I haven't had a single stone. I'm not zero carb but a lot of the research I did links rice and kidney stones. More kidney stones are reported in china every year then the rest of the world combine.  Tongue
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