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Author Topic: Cooked Starches  (Read 2759 times)
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alphagruis
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« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2010, 03:35:23 AM »

  You dont like this of course but the fact is that your speculations are to a large extent suspect simply because most RVAFers mention doing increasingly  badly on pemmican healthwise. Therefore for anyone like William to promote pemmican as a health-food is not only dangerous for other members but also trollish.

Tyler, the question is not whether I like something or not and deals not with the usual form of pemmican but with the "raw" pemmican variety of William. I don't know of any clear cut evidence of people doing so badly when eating this form of pemmican.

The RVAFers you mention ate in fact the usual form of pemmican where the meat is dried at temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F) and the fat rendered above boiling water temperature, not to mention the quality ( heavily grain fed) of the fat and meat.

That said I do not disagree with your concern about the general RAWPALEO concept and do not advocate to adopt this kind of food as usual food but I definitely consider this "raw" pemmican concept of very high interest for all RPDers in specific circumstances such as travel etc.

 
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TylerDurden
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« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2010, 07:37:00 AM »

Tyler, the question is not whether I like something or not and deals not with the usual form of pemmican but with the "raw" pemmican variety of William. I don't know of any clear cut evidence of people doing so badly when eating this form of pemmican.

The RVAFers you mention ate in fact the usual form of pemmican where the meat is dried at temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F) and the fat rendered above boiling water temperature, not to mention the quality ( heavily grain fed) of the fat and meat.

That said I do not disagree with your concern about the general RAWPALEO concept and do not advocate to adopt this kind of food as usual food but I definitely consider this "raw" pemmican concept of very high interest for all RPDers in specific circumstances such as travel etc.


I don`t have the slightest problem with RPDers using pemmican as a 2nd-rate food while travelling. Though, IMO, given past reports, it`s only useful in that regard for those raw zero-carbers who do much worse on any raw carbs than on some cooked foods. Raw omnivores would be best placed to eat raw fruits instead for a short time, which are generally easily available while travelling.

Judging from the  negative reports of RVAFers, plenty of them ate pemmican from grassfed meat sources but still had various issues. Plus, while quite a number of of them have eaten the dried-meat portion of pemmican in raw form(as defined by  raw food guidelines, less than 40 degrees celsius), the vast majority have heated pemmican to high temperatures well above what could be scientifically called "raw". Lex himself stated that for long term storage the fat in pemmican had to be heated to 250 degrees fahrenheit. As for William, when in the past  pressed about temperatures he used, he mentioned 200 degrees fahrenheit plus for the fat; judging from past posts in which he claimed that tallow was raw and  couldn`t be considered to have been heated until it was heated over 300 degrees fahrenheit, he seems to have a different notion of what "raw" really means compared to everybody else. Now, Paleophil mentioned heating pemmican at much lower temperatures(I think much less than boiling point of water?) and that could be considered  much less harmful, though not on a par with standard raw meats/fats of course.
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« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2010, 01:32:10 AM »

Quote
Complex carbohydrates that are not easily digested feed harmful bacteria in our intestines causing them to overgrow producing by products and inflaming the intestine wall. The diet works by starving out these bacteria and restoring the balance of bacteria in our gut.
The Specific Carbohydrate Diet™ is biologically correct because it is species appropriate. The allowed foods are mainly those that early man ate before agriculture began. The diet we evolved to eat over millions of years was predominantly one of meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, nuts, low-sugar fruits. Our modern diet including starches, grains, pasta, legumes, and breads has only been consumed for a mere 10,000 years. In the last hundred years the increase in complex sugars and chemical additives in the diet has led to a huge increase in health problems ranging from severe bowel disorders to obesity and brain function disorders. We have not adapted to eat this modern diet as there has not been enough time for natural selection to operate. It therefore makes sense to eat the diet we evolved with.
http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/beginners_guide/beginners.htm

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The  rationale of the diet, as described in Breaking  the Vicious Cycle, is as follows:

1. When the body receives complex carbohydrates (disaccharides or polysaccharides) these substances must be broken down before they can be absorbed.
2. In the body of a person who is not able to break these substances down efficiently, an influx of undigested material causes harmful bacteria to flourish.
3. Bacterial overgrowth is accordingly followed by a significant increase in the waste and other irritants they produce.
4. Irritation in the lining of the digestive tract results in the overproduction of mucus and injury to the digestive tract, which in turn causes malabsorption and makes it even more difficult to maintain proper digestion.

The purpose of the diet is to break the ongoing cycle caused by an overpopulation of harmful bacteria in the gut. When the body is able to absorb the proper nutrients from simple sugars and other carbohydrates that are easy to digest, the inflammation and other complications caused by many auto-immune diseases can be lessened. The goal is to rid the body of complex saccharides so that the gut will be able to heal itself and enable further healing to occur.

The method of the diet is to keep the bacterial flora well balanced and to allow the gut to digest all of the food it is given, thereby starving out the harmful bacteria.

Certain foods, such as commercial syrups and sugars, starchy vegetables, and dairy products are not allowed while on the diet. Other foods, such as fruits, greens, animal protein, and nuts are allowed.

A plethora of people benefit from substantial reduction or even elimination of complex carbs.
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« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2010, 09:17:25 AM »

^This is why if you partake in starch it needs to be fermented preferably for a week or 2(maybe longer).  Just about every traditional culture ferments starch before they eat it and this is why they suffer very little problems from them imo.  Fermenting grains turns something that is full of bullshit and generally unhealthy into a nutritious food with very little negative effects
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« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2010, 05:24:52 PM »

Thanks for chiming in cliff - I've been thinking about long-soaking the tubers etc., so you've given me a nice cue. Do you have experience with fermenting starches, particularly roots/tubers (as opposed to grains) and do you simply long-soak them?
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« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2010, 05:56:42 PM »

I don't know of any clear cut evidence of people doing so badly when eating this form of pemmican. 

me, i am one.. i can promise you the pemmican i made was 'raw'... both meat and fat were left at 85F (3 days for the lean, 1 hour for the fat)... so the fat was not really rendered, just softened and then blended to a viscous liquid.  i even tried it with the same lean mixed with raw bone marrow (not warmed, just fresh and mushed in).

one meal of this, and the intestinal inflammation that will follow is beyond painful.  pain aside, well.. there's more.  these symptoms are just as bad and i think quicker onset as any starch or grain...
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« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2010, 06:41:56 PM »

just wanted to report on a little experiment i did yesterday. i had a few days off, so i decided to experiment with eating some cooked foods again to see if i could tolerate them. i decided to cook one organic parsnip with a slice of onion and some grass-fed bone broth (that i got for free from a farm). i added enough water to cover it all in my little crock pot and put it on low for an hour. it actually went down ok which surprised me. but, an hour or so after eating it, some of my candida issues came back (just kinda itchy all over). but i was surprised it digested without major issues. anyways, im not going to be doing it again most likely because it didn't make me feel good (just not overtly bad), but i thought i'd add this to the discussion.

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« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2010, 07:04:26 PM »

Thanks for chiming in cliff - I've been thinking about long-soaking the tubers etc., so you've given me a nice cue. Do you have experience with fermenting starches, particularly roots/tubers (as opposed to grains) and do you simply long-soak them?
I was watching a show on TV, No Reservations With Anthony Bourdain I believe, where they visited a tribe of hunter/gatherers. The women in the tribe would chew on a root until it became a paste in their mouth and then spit it in a bowl. They did this for hours as a group until they had a large amount of the partially digested (salivary enzymes) root. This was then allowed to sit and ferment and eventually eaten or drank (can't remember which). I believe the Hawaiian dish Poi is made in a similar manner. You could try something similar. Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2010, 07:19:35 PM »

me, i am one.. i can promise you the pemmican i made was 'raw'... both meat and fat were left at 85F (3 days for the lean, 1 hour for the fat)... so the fat was not really rendered, just softened and then blended to a viscous liquid.  i even tried it with the same lean mixed with raw bone marrow (not warmed, just fresh and mushed in).


You are braver than I - I stay as close as possible to the traditional  pemmican sold to the Hudson's Bay Co. Just eating the stuff is experiment enough for me; trying a new recipe is too much.
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« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2010, 07:59:38 PM »

why is this brave?... it's the most raw version of pemmican i could think of...
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