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Author Topic: A day in the life of TylerDurden  (Read 14440 times)
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 09:52:33 PM »

Quote
As regards plants, I have had enough personal experience that makes it clear that raw plants, especially fruits, are essential for optimum huma health, albeit in small quantities. No plant-food whatsoever in the diet, at best greatly reduces physical performance, and, for many people such as myself, it causes  very terminal health-problems in the long run.

Tyler, I appreciate your experiences with a zero-carb approach way of eating, but are you drawing a conclusion about what is optimum for human health solely from your personal experiences or is there more to it?  My experience is the complete opposite of yours.  In fact, I didn't even know zero-carb was some way of eating, I arrived at it by eliminating all the foods that gave me horrible abdominal pains.  Sick and tired of going extensions without eating to avoid pain, and then enduring the pain when I did finally eat I thought, 'okay this is it... there has got to be at least one food that won't make me ill that I can eat'. I didn't care if it was olives (I hate olives, lol), but I was determined to find a source of compatible nourishment.  And I did, turns out to be eggs, meat, fish... and here I am at this forum!  I cannot express the relief I have to actually be able to enjoy eating, it's so much that the social barriers that exist (I know I've caused them myself, but nonetheless...) are so secondary. It's only been few months, but I don't have any decrease in physical activity whatsoever, I'm sure.  I won't go so far as to say it has increased, but probably since I'm actually eating now and I'm happier. Are you suggesting I should be worried for my long-term health?

Thanks,
Ioanna
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2009, 11:03:50 PM »

  Are you suggesting I should be worried for my long-term health?
maybe it is good for you to do zero-carb for some period of time, so that you'll heal from your abdominal problems
but cutting all carbs and eating only "meat and fat" for the rest of your life wouldn't be good - that's certainly not paleo
albeit for now this zero-carb could be the only option Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 05:26:11 AM »

As regards plants, I have had enough personal experience that makes it clear that raw plants, especially fruits, are essential for optimum huma health, albeit in small quantities. No plant-food whatsoever in the diet, at best greatly reduces physical performance, and, for many people such as myself, it causes  very terminal health-problems in the long run.

I know you know it all better - so take your pepper (laxative) and eat your fruit for optimum humane health Sad
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TylerDurden
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2009, 06:13:25 AM »

I know you know it all better - so take your pepper (laxative) and eat your fruit for optimum humane health Sad

*sigh* - I wasn't suggesting that I need to eat raw spices all the time. It's just an experiment.
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 07:01:42 AM »

Tyler, I appreciate your experiences with a zero-carb approach way of eating, but are you drawing a conclusion about what is optimum for human health solely from your personal experiences or is there more to it?  My experience is the complete opposite of yours.  In fact, I didn't even know zero-carb was some way of eating, I arrived at it by eliminating all the foods that gave me horrible abdominal pains.  Sick and tired of going extensions without eating to avoid pain, and then enduring the pain when I did finally eat I thought, 'okay this is it... there has got to be at least one food that won't make me ill that I can eat'. I didn't care if it was olives (I hate olives, lol), but I was determined to find a source of compatible nourishment.  And I did, turns out to be eggs, meat, fish... and here I am at this forum!  I cannot express the relief I have to actually be able to enjoy eating, it's so much that the social barriers that exist (I know I've caused them myself, but nonetheless...) are so secondary. It's only been few months, but I don't have any decrease in physical activity whatsoever, I'm sure.  I won't go so far as to say it has increased, but probably since I'm actually eating now and I'm happier. Are you suggesting I should be worried for my long-term health?

Thanks,
Ioanna

I am not suggesting that zero-carb is automatically a disaster for everyone. What concerns me, though, is this:- most Arctic tribes do eat berries in summer, even if they eat practically 99-100% meats, raw or cooked, at other times. They , presumably, also eat the fermented stomach-contents(ie plant-matter) of the animal-carcasses they cut up. So, 100% carnivorous diet for life, for humans, may be  rarer than expected.

 Plus, a lot of people do very badly on zero-carb, raw or otherwise, judging from reports of RPDers. I'm not the only one. Though, I'll grant that the overwhelming majority of people do better on raw,low-carb(<35%) than raw, high-carb(like Instincto)(80%+ raw plant-foods).

While there are individual differences in adaptation or non-adaptation to zero-carb, the evidence re loss of physical performance is pretty much across the board - I'm assuming you do low-level exercise so don't notice much difference? Certainly, I (and a number of raw athletes on other groups) have noticed a distinct, massive drop in physical performance when cutting out all carbs from the diet, such as having no endurance or losing physical strength. Plus most photos of long-term zero-carbers show them to be rather too light of weight and not very muscular(indeed same happens to me when I've been extremely VLC or 0 carb) , requiring quite some time to recover from very harsh exercise etc..  This is in stark contrast to the widely reported massive physical attributes/exercise-levels of Palaeo tribespeople, (re evidence of bones), which seems to imply, IMO, that these Cro-Magnon  must have had some carbs in their diet. To date, it has been pointed out that no modern athlete nowadays follow a genuine zero-carb diet, which rather proves things.



Still, you certainly seem to be doing the right thing for now. That is, you're just doing whatever works for you now and discarding what doesn't, rather than following a dietary philosophy - so keep at it since it's working, and  change it in slight ways via experimentation, should it ever not work any more.

(I once made the mistake of believing in some Primal Dieters' claims that my symptoms from raw dairy were just "detox" and/or that I was  somehow uniquely guilty/at fault for having a "leaky gut" or some such nonsense - the result was it took me 6 months before I realised my health was way more important than following the rules of any diet, and cut out the raw dairy(and subsequently healed). Since then, while I do believe in the concept of detox, I find that a genuine detox is one which is relatively minor and of short duration - a fake detox is when the symptoms you have keep on getting worse and never improving the longer you're doing things wrong re diet).
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2009, 07:06:41 AM »

I am not suggesting that zero-carb is automatically a disaster for everyone. What concerns me, though, is this:- most Arctic tribes do eat berries in summer, even if they eat practically 99-100% meats, raw or cooked, at other times. They , presumably, also eat the fermented stomach-contents(ie plant-matter) of the animal-carcasses they cut up. So, 100% carnivorous diet for life, for humans, may be  rarer than expected.
That's very true
look at the coyotes - they are carnivorous, they do like carrion, but they also eat some fruits and vegetables
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2009, 07:47:04 AM »

While there are individual differences in adaptation or non-adaptation to zero-carb, the evidence re loss of physical performance is pretty much across the board - I'm assuming you do low-level exercise so don't notice much difference? Certainly, I (and a number of raw athletes on other groups) have noticed a distinct, massive drop in physical performance when cutting out all carbs from the diet, such as having no endurance or losing physical strength. Plus most photos of long-term zero-carbers show them to be rather too light of weight and not very muscular(indeed same happens to me when I've been extremely VLC or 0 carb) , requiring quite some time to recover from very harsh exercise etc..  This is in stark contrast to the widely reported massive physical attributes/exercise-levels of Palaeo tribespeople, (re evidence of bones), which seems to imply, IMO, that these Cro-Magnon  must have had some carbs in their diet. To date, it has been pointed out that no modern athlete nowadays follow a genuine zero-carb diet, which rather proves things.

I experienced lack of power and excessively long recovery time after work out if carbs are too low.
I believe low carb/very low carb is the best human nutrition strategy.
While zero carb may be good in some pathological case or if one is not doing loads of hard exercise, it is not generally affordable by relatively ambitious athletes.
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« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 08:10:34 AM »

That's very true
look at the coyotes - they are carnivorous, they do like carrion, but they also eat some fruits and vegetables

My understanding is that canines are opportunistic carnivores. They will supposedly only eat plant foods if there are insufficient flesh foods available. So while they can survive on some plant foods, their optimal diet is believed to be 100% carnivore or very nearly so. Years ago I looked up analyses of African wild dog diets and they were 100% carnivorous--apparently there was sufficient prey available.

Here are some of the sources I found at the time (there may be some expired links):

African Wild Dog
http://www.whozoo.org/Intro98/michaelg/michgree.htm

Wild Dogs: Lowveld Wild Dogs Project
http://www.mluri.sari.ac.uk/wilddogs/wddiet.htm

African Wild Dog: Habitat & Diet
http://www.123spot.com/AnimalDirectory/africanwilddogs2.htm

Third Kruger Park Wild Dog Photographic Survey
http://www.parks-sa.co.za/conservation/scientific_services/ss_wild_dog_survey.html

Did anyone who lost strength or endurance on zero carb try pemmican as an energy source? Some people have claimed that works as well for them as carbs.

Interesting perspectives here. Playing devil's advocate, how does one explain those Greenland Inuit who were found to be 99% carnivore on average (meaning that some individuals must have been 100% carnivore), with only small amounts of summer berries eaten by some? Must we assume that they had low energy and strength? How did they find the energy to hunt whale? On the other hand, most Inuit in other areas were found to eat more plant foods than that.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 08:20:55 AM by PaleoPhil » Logged

> "Medicine improved exponentially when the tinkering barber surgeons took over from the high theorists. They just went with what worked, irrespective of why it worked." -Nassim Taleb
> "no one would touch this type of diet unless they'd tried everything else and this diet alone worked" -T.D.
> Tinkering with dairy & gluten elimination worked for me. I found a theory that explained it (Eaton's Paleolithic nutrition), which pointed me toward more tinkering, with more success. -Me
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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 01:21:25 PM »

My understanding is that canines are opportunistic carnivores. They will supposedly only eat plant foods if there are insufficient flesh foods available. So while they can survive on some plant foods, their optimal diet is believed to be 100% carnivore or very nearly so.
Even if you are right about canines being opportunistic it is still true that in natural wild environment carnivorous have also eaten some berries and plants for millions of years
being 100% carnivorous is then unnatural
Interesting perspectives here. Playing devil's advocate, how does one explain those Greenland Inuit who were found to be 99% carnivore on average (meaning that some individuals must have been 100% carnivore), with only small amounts of summer berries eaten by some? Must we assume that they had low energy and strength? How did they find the energy to hunt whale? On the other hand, most Inuit in other areas were found to eat more plant foods than that.
yeah, I do know quite a lot about Innuits and their diet
but they haven't lived in natural environment for humans - hence their lifespan has been shorter
homo sapiens has lived for millions of years in warm climate and fruits and plants have been present in their diet
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« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 02:11:39 PM »

Interesting perspectives here. Playing devil's advocate, how does one explain those Greenland Inuit who were found to be 99% carnivore on average (meaning that some individuals must have been 100% carnivore), with only small amounts of summer berries eaten by some? Must we assume that they had low energy and strength? How did they find the energy to hunt whale? On the other hand, most Inuit in other areas were found to eat more plant foods than that.

Re dogs:- I believe that dogs can be fed on veg. Indeed, some extreme vegans force their dogs to eat only vegan or vegeterian meals. It's only cats who are obligate carnivores.

Re "Paleophil":- Out of curiosity, are you also the "Paleophil" on the paleofood list?

Re pemmican:- Well, I've never felt the need to eat pemmican. Pemmican, after all, isn't a raw food, so it's only really seen as a possibility for those raw, zero-carbers who refuse to eat any carbs at all, and who find themselves in a situation where they can't find decent equivalent raw food sources. Most RAFers, instead, find that eating amounts of raw carbs(like raw fruit), during times of meat-scarcity,  is a far better alternative to eating cooked-animal-food as the latter generally gives detox-reactions(eg:- a hangover-like effect) once consumed, while eating raw fruit does no such harm(at least not to raw low-carbers).

While I haven't bothered to try pemmican, partly due to rather negative reactions to cooked-foods and partly due to the excessive waste of time involved in preparing any cooked-/processed foods, I have gone in for eating heated suet(as a taste-experiment) , some years ago while attempting zero-carb. The effects were disastrous, and made me realise that cooked-animal-fat is something my body finds highly toxic(however 100% grassfed/organic it may be), more toxic, indeed, than cooked lean meat or even cooked carbs. So heated animal fats are not a solution for me re increasing physical activity, quite the opposite.

(I've done some experiments when walking in the Alps, with a sort of equivalent  "raw pemmican"(ie nothing processed, just carrying with me some lean-meats mixed in with raw marrow or suet. of course, the stuff would rapidly rot due to the meat but I'd consume it mostly or wholly  within 5 days, regardless. Inevitably, by the 3rd day, I would be utterly exhausted, with no stamina, and no amount of the lean-meat/fat mixture would help re increasing endurance. I'd end up looking ridiculous and having to rest constantly for 5 minutes each time while other hikers sauntereed past me).


Other points re pemmican:- Not only does high heat have to be used on pemmican in order to preserve it for ages, which casues an increased level of heat-created toxins to appear, but, any foods, even raw foods, that are stored for very long periods tend to develop oxidisation(oxidised fats are very toxic) and rancidity etc.. Now, sealing pemmican in vacuum-packs and freezing it can prevent(or slow down?) the rancidity and the oxidation, but the issue of heat-created toxins still remains. Plus, the whole raison-d'etre of raw-foodism is to eat foods in fresh form. As someone else pointed out on another forum, pemmican is no different from much of the cooked/processed junk-food that's designed by supermarkets to last for months/years on the shelves. It;'s the same princicple involved:- lowering the quality of the food so as to extend its storage-life.

re the above point re oxidation(taken from other group):-  
 
> And if you're concerned about the possibility of cancer (as we all
> should be in this toxic world we've created for ourselves), here's a
> quote from the Summary of Holistic Cancer Therapy in "Overcoming
> Cancer" by Walter Last:
>
>
>
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."



Re Inuit:- Well, it depends on the source and who you believe, I guess. If I were to believe Michael from the RAV-Food list, he's an anti-PUFA campaigner who believes that the Inuit were afflicted with rapid aging as a result of their diet(he refers to Stefansson's well-known comment in the fat of the land boook etc.,  about how  the Inuit he saw  aged much faster   than people on standard(lower-PUFA diets)). He was more concerned with the PUFA issue, but it could always have been the zero-carbs which were at fault.

Another point is that the Inuit are following diets quite unlike what the vast majority of (raw or cooked) zero-carbers are doing. The Inuit(on traditional diets), after all, eat vast amounts of  seafood, raw or cooked, including plenty of aged meats and a variety of  organ-meats, yet most zero-carbers don't seem to value either aged meat , let alone seafood, they just concentrate on fatty muscle-meats and water, for the most part, which is not very much like the Inuit diet of rotting whalemeat, seal-blubber etc.

Also, it's been claimed by some scientists that the Inuit have specially adapted, on a genetic level, to zero-carb diets over many generations, so that they're less affected than people who start them only  later in life etc.. This makes some sense if you've read about the science of "epigenetics" which has shown how smoking by a grandfather can, for instance, influence the gene-expression of their grandchildren etc.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 03:16:50 PM by TylerDurden » Logged

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"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action" Goldfingerism, Ian Fleming
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