Lex,

The first time I went zero carb I had a fast heart rate. I didn't measure it but it was definitely higher. I thought that was a symptom of sodium deficiency but you've convinced me that it was the fat-adaptation process.

I can't thank you enough for doing these experiments.

Craig

This is most interesting! So, if you weren't keto-adapted as you thought, I suspect your body was using it's own protein stores to raise its glucose to a more comfortable level. As you become more keto-adapted, you should be using more fat and less glucose which would then start sparing protein. I suspect this will happen when your BG levels off and your ketones drop.

Craig

I hope this doesn't last long. If your ketones are still that high, it tells me your body's not utilizing them hence the muscle weakness.

Craig

Lex,

That sure sounds like what I went through keto-adapting but I was getting much better after only two weeks. Don't quote me but I think it's two weeks to keto-adapt and then longer, maybe the 5 - 6 weeks you mentioned before, to adapt to using free fatty acids themselves.

Getting glucose from fat is very inefficient. Have you dropped any more weight than the three pounds? It's a possibility that your body is using ketones but hasn't yet honed its ability to produce them efficiently and is over-producing them just to be safe - until your body adapts and is able to use them or FFAs efficiently.

It could be the other way around with your body producing the precise amount of ketones needed but your muscles aren't able to use them up efficiently, resulting in tiredness and excess ketones in the urine. The energy is there, just not usable yet.

I would show high ketones after exercise even after I was adapted (after the two weeks). I'm not sure about now though. I haven't measured ketones after exercise in quite a while.

I wonder why it's taken you this long to get to this lethargic point. You couldn't possibly have had three weeks worth of glycogen stores...unless maybe you were already partially fat-adapted. I don't know what to make of it. 

Re your fat caliper readings, it looks to me like you were not using muscle for your glucose production during the second week but burning fat as your weight and body fat % went down. The third week, your fat % went up at the same weight. Wouldn't that only happen if you were catabolizing muscle and perhaps turning some of that protein-derived glucose into fat?

This is all very perplexing! Thanks for hanging in there and I hope you start feeling better sooner than later.

Craig

Craig and Andrew,
Thanks for the feedback.  Let me try to cover some of the areas that you both outlined in your responses.


No, I seem to have stabilized at about 159, however, lean muscle has apparently been sacrificed to create glucose which then raised insulin high enough at times to create fat.  I started with caliper readings of Abdomen:9mm Chest:6mm Thigh:11mm.  The readings are now Abdomen:12mm Chest:7mm Thigh:11mm.  As you can see I've added belly fat.  Not much, but to me it is noticeable.


My understanding is that the muscles can use both FFA's and Glucose but not ketones until they've adapted and this means sacrificing Fast Twitch muscle fibers (the kind that grow when you exercise), for Slow Twitch muscle fibers.  The slow Twitch must also adapt by adding significantly more mitochondria to efficiently process ketones and also build a denser capillary structure to better supply the fuel in real time as ketones can't be stored like glucose and ffa's.


Probably and over simplification but something of this sort is what seems to be happening.  I'm told that the body adapts in stages.  The brain adapts first and begins using ketones for a little more than half its energy requirements.  Under normal conditions it will use about 5g of glucose per hour.  When keto adapted it used 2g glucose per hour.  However, even though the brain has adapted the muscles will still use glucose if it is available as their conversion is much slower as a new infrastructure must be built to support it (mitochondria and capillaries).  This starts immediately, but takes several weeks to transition.


If the muscles are adapted then ketones will most likely drop immediately after exercise as they were used up.  However the body will continue to create them for while even though the immediate demand is gone so they will again show up several hours later.  Within a few hours all should be back to normal.  This is why you will see variations in ketones once fully adapted.  It will be ketones that will vary as energy needs vary and glucose will now become very stable - exactly the reverse of the "normal" glucose driven metabolism.


My best guess is that my brain adapted early on, however, I was eating enough protein (about 150g/day) to supply the glucose necessary for the muscles.  During off-times glucose was manufactured by converting 58% of the protein into glucose.  This was stored in the muscles as glycogen and then as glycogen reserves in the liver as well.  Since I don't workout, this was plenty of glucose to fuel my normal activities.  Once I went to 80% fat, protein dropped to about 70g/day and the muscles were forced to start adapting once their glycogen stores were gone and the liver had used up its reserves.


This just happened to me recently.  Of course it took a while to really enjoy my meat/fat diet but after a year or so I really started looking forward to each meal.  It's just in the last few days that I've really wanted a carb and meat and fat just didn't appeal to me.  I've held strong and stuck with my prescribed food rations, but have on a couple of occasions had to eat two separate meals about 6-8 hours apart to get it down.


Again, this is new for me.  I never really felt bad or rundown even in the beginning several years ago.  I think this is due to the relatively large amount of protein I was eating which supplied the glucose my body needed.  A younger person would probably have it the wall because their activity level is so much higher.  Though I walk a good deal I don't do any intense workouts or training of any kind so the 80-90g of glucose was enough  since my brain did convert early to ketones and didn't require much of the glucose.


I've always slept about 7 hours.  Sleeping 10 and still wishing I could stay in bed is a bit depressing.  Oh well, with perseverance this to shall pass,

Lex