Just as William or my ZC experience doesn't necessarily apply to all, so your experience with fruit doesn't necessarily apply to all. I think discussion improves when we focus on sharing our experiences rather than trying to apply them to everyone.

As I mentioned, I WANT to be able to eat raw fruit, but find I generally don't do well on even small amounts of it. I think berries may be the least offensive of the lot for me, so I intend to experiment some more with them, and probably add animal fat to them to see if that helps. I also recommend reading Lex's journal posts, especially the ones about the supposedly magical ingredients in fruits and veg, such as the ones you mentioned.

Are you claiming that I or someone else here doesn't do this? Do you have any specific ones to recommend?

Yes, my own approach is not to assume that either all carbs are bad or that I need carbs to function. I consider that pretty open-minded.

The less you eat a food, the less you'll be able to digest it properly (loss of required enzymes, etc.). The more you eat it, the more you'll be able to handle it. For example, some long time vegans cannot digest even a little bit of raw meat. I found that after one year of ZC, I could not handle even a modest amount of fruits. Now it is much better, even if fibers will remain a big problem for me.


Nobody believes in magic components in whatever food. The fact remains that plant food contains known and unknown nutrients that we are adapted to.


Wise attitude.

Typically, I agree with everyone, although I did say "seems ridiculous" rather than "is ridiculous" on the matter of fruit eating - that was more a nod to the fact that domestic fruits are nowadays higher in sugar/fructose, plus there's the matter of salicylate sensitivity, which plagues a few on here - a la the coconut oil cramps etc.  (maybe check www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info).

@PaleoPhil: Have you read any of Melvin Page's books? What about the passages on www.raypeat.com (wildly interesting!)?

I'll acknowledge that both too much meat/fat and too much fruit results in poor day-to-day health for me, so I'm considering some denser carbs in the form of pseudo-grains, non-gluten grains and maybe potatoes (as of the so-called optimal diet). I hate(!) to undermine paleo in this way, but frankly, it's not servicing my good health. I will be experimenting with high meat/fat/carbs over the next few weeks, with some light (I know, not exactly non-toxic) heat application, just to see if my health is facilitated.

This is not a reckless move, but on the back of reading diverse blogs that aren't exactly pro-lo-carb+raw. Suffice to say that all of my animal foods, fruits and fermented vegetables/beverages will be raw, along with the addition of cooked starches (did you say Maillard-facilitated Acrylamide formation?!) in an attempt to raise my metabolism, which high-fat RAF has failed to do thus far. I could imagine that our ancestors diversified when their health was not facilitated (a la the robust peoples reported by WAP), so I feel confident to follow in their footsteps, albeit with the greatest respect for maintaining my high RVAF intake.

Low PUFA intake is assumed, so I won't be buying any more F-CLO in the short term, replacing instead with a D3 supplement and ruminant liver. I've also found a new source for game, so that will be nice to include, plus I've found a source for raw Jersey cream, so that may be useful as a short term boost of fat-soluble vitamins.

I'm also beginning to wonder how healed+sealed my permeable gut lining is, so I will up my intake of homemade raw bone meal.

Also, I really appreciate this community, so don't be thinking for a moment that I'm trying to undermine anyone, when I'm actually just trying to stimulate creativity and bring the best out in anyone/everyone - without sounding corny, that is...Maybe I will get myself a glucose meter and do the metrics thing...

I checked out images of teeeth, and my canines are more pronounced than the images I've found, such as these:



...even though my canines are worn down some by past night grinding. I never noticed this before. Thanks GS, maybe there's something to this. Does your health coach have any sources to refer me to learn more about this?

We'll see. Right from the very beginning when I first started making small cutbacks on carbs but was still eating plenty of them I experienced improvements. So my problems with them didn't start only after being on ZC for a while. So far I haven't noticed any increase in problems in handling fruits when I do try them, just the same problems and same severity as before. When I initially eliminated gluten, those times I ate some again (whether intentionally or unintentionally), I experienced very severe reactions that gradually lessened over time. I suspect that this is because my gut is less leaky and my immune system is calmer. With fruits I haven't  noticed any changes one way or another.

I'm skeptical of that claim--especially when it comes to the 811ers. Many of their posts do suggest such beliefs. Lex has written brilliantly about it in the past. I think he is even more skeptical of the outlandish vegan/fruitarian claims than I am.

And the fact remains that we still understand little about them and for whatever reason, neither Lex, William nor I experience the tremendous benefits from plant foods that the 811ers claim, and I never have--even when I thought that many of the claims about antioxidants and such were probably true. Because I was so swayed by those claims I continued eating lots of plant foods even as they were sickening me. Based on Lex's journal, it sounds like the same was true for him. I wish it weren't so and I understand that this is probably hard for people to accept who do very well on plant foods, but the truth is what it is, whether I or anyone else likes it or not. It's important for people to know that not everyone does great eating tons of plant foods, so they don't make the same mistake that Lex and I made.

The same appears to be true re: ZC--not everyone is suited to that either--which Tyler and others can speak to with their negative ZC experiences.

One thing I find is that no matter how thoroughly you test things and how carefully you try to follow people's instructions, some of them will still claim that you didn't do something right and you will do well on lots of <fill in the blank--often raw fruit> if you just make the right combinations or start out with small amounts or follow some other intricate instructions perfectly. Then if you follow those instructions and still don't do well, they create new instructions or say you're just "detoxing" or claim you weren't quite perfect enough. I don't pay much attention to those sorts of instructions and claims any more. I've found them to be very detrimental to my health. Based on Lex's reports on vegan eating and Tyler's reports on raw dairy, it sounds like they've had similar experiences. No matter how many ill effects we report from the foods that effect us negatively, some people will never accept that those foods (usually raw dairy or raw fruit, which seem to be holy-grail foods for some people for some reason) harm us.


I read some of Ray Peat's stuff--mostly years ago. I don't recall Melvin Page.

I am intrigued by the examples of tribal peoples appearing to do well on starchy diets, such as the Kitavans and Peter of Hyperlipids' example of a "vegetarian" Bantu tribe and would like to learn more about it. One thing that has puzzled me from early on is that most HG tribes eat plenty of cooked tubers like yams when they're available in their habitat. Doesn't guarantee they're healthy, but it does raise questions. I think Dr. Cordain even allows for yams and some potatoes in the diets of athletes.

Peter of Hyperlipid is a good source re: that approach and follows a modified version of it himself, I believe.